This is the episode on representation where we're going to talk about agents and managers. What are they? What is the difference? Do you need one? And which one? And how does it all work? We're going to walk you through this from several different perspectives and sort it all out. We will talk to producers who hire via agents and managers, and we’ll speak to a manager and an agent.

THE PANEL

Matt Birch

Kailey Marsh

Jessica Hall Malanaphy

Jeanette Volturno

THE PODCAST

BONUS MATERIAL

THE BLOOD LIST

TRANSCRIPT

Catch A Break — EP 6

Call My People

Matt Birch: We open doors for people. We introduce them to people they've never met before. We try to follow a path and have goals and dreams and try to achieve that as a collaboration with the client.

Julie Harris Walker: This is Catch A Break. The Insider's Guide to breaking into and navigating Hollywood. Conceived by CatchLight Films. Whether you are looking to work in film or television or new media it's all production and it's all entertainment. Maybe you are already in the business but looking to make a change, shift your focus, explore a new area. This is for you too. In each episode Catch A Break brings you a panel of top experts currently working in the business for conversations you won't hear anywhere else. And we'll provide you with bonus materials you can get your hands on and sink your teeth into. We'll give you samples of paperwork and forms you need to be familiar with. Video tutorials, exclusive resources that will all help with your success. The presenting sponsor of this episode is the entertainment payroll company Extreme Reach. They have the most comprehensive suite of tools and services to support all areas of media and content creation, from tax incentive support to accounting software and payroll services. If you are producing content call Extreme Reach. This episode has also sponsored by vetyourcrew.com. A global database of entertainment professionals geared toward collaboration and inclusion. Think of it as a global address book for crew which also has an interactive calendar to show when you're available and a robust search engine to help you find and hire exactly who you're looking for. Go to vetyourcrew.com to sign up. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the podcast providers. I am your host Julie Harris Walker. You may know me from the podcast The Other 50 Percent: a Herstory of Hollywood or even the Kiss My Age Show. But today the focus is on you and how we can help you to Catch A Break.

Julie Harris Walker: Welcome to Catch a Break in the episode I'm calling “Call <y People,” the episode on representation. Today we're gonna talk about agents and managers. What are they? What is the difference? Do you need one? And which one? And how does it all work? We're gonna walk you through this from several different perspectives and sort it all out. So first on our panel we're gonna look at this from the perspective of the people who hire. Representing production executives and producers we have Jeanette Volturno who you have heard from before in this podcast. She's one of the founders of CatchLight Films and Head of Production at Blumhouse. Hello, Jeanette.

Jeanette Volturno: Hello.

Julie Harris Walker: Thank you for joining us.

Jeanette Volturno: My pleasure.

Julie Harris Walker: And today we also have Jessica Malanaphy who is an independent producer and another founder of CatchLight Films. Welcome Jessica.

Jessica Malanaphy: Hi.

Julie Harris Walker: So, let's start with you. What is your relationships with agents and managers and how do you manage that process?

Jessica Malanaphy: So, agents and managers are kind of my first line of defense because as a producer there's so much content out there, especially now, that you need to be aware of in terms of short films that are on YouTube and Vimeo and what's going on the festival circuit and new writers that you might not be aware of and new voices that are coming up in these independent and social media channels and all that kind of stuff. So, to be able to weed through all of that content on my own would be literally impossible. There's just too much of it. So, to find an agent that I really respect their taste or a manager who has a great roster of genre specific clients, for example, that I can go to with the project and say, “Hey, this is what I need. I either need a writer who kind of has the tone of a, you know, serial killer movie and they can execute great characters and dialogue” and then have them send me three people or I can read hundreds of samples on my own and try to wade through all of that and there's just not enough time in the day to do the latter.

Julie Harris Walker: So, it's kind of a gatekeeper, a stamp of approval, you know the people you're getting are vetted and legit.

Jessica Malanaphy: Exactly. It's the same thing as like, when we're talking about getting your first job and all of those positions that say “agency experience required.” It's that badge of, you've been through the trenches, you've been vetted, you’re quality people and you're somebody to pay attention to. And that's not to say that people who don't have representation aren't because there are great writers… I’m working with a writer right now who's not currently represented. There are great people out there that don't have representation but it just makes my job a little bit easier to go through those channels.

Julie Harris Walker: From where you're sitting, what is the difference between an agent or a manager?

Jessica Malanaphy: This is a gross generalization but I think…agents are fantastic when you really need to cast a wide net quickly because they tend to have more clients than managers. So, when I'm looking for that open directing assignment I can call an agent and say I need somebody who fits these qualities and they'll send me 10 people immediately that I can look at. When I'm looking for something that's a little bit more out of the box, I find that some managers tend to have a little bit more of a holistic approach to what they show their clients and because of that you get a bit more variety in the types of voices sometimes that you hear and those managers are really invested in working very, very closely with some of those clients so they can really give you very specific feedback on that client’s strengths and where that client might need a little bit of extra support.

Julie Harris Walker: Now if you're looking at putting projects together, we've heard that term about packaging. Like, what does that mean and are those people who are helping you do that?

Jessica Malanaphy: So, I'm actually doing that right now with UTA. I have a project where the writer was not represented, I'm not represented, but the other two producers on the project are represented as writers by UTA. So, in that case UTA represented all four of us as a package and they were the ones that sent out the script and helped us find our financier. So now we're in the process of looking for our director. So, we're doing an open call and wh- what's called an open directing assignment. And so, the first thing that we do is call all the agents and managers that we know have great genre clients, in this case it's a horror movie. So, we're going out to very specific agents that we know work in that space and saying, “Here's what we're looking for, here is when we're shooting. Who do you have that's available and interested in doing this kind of film?” And it's great because we get all these incoming calls from other people at the agency. They talk to their colleagues. And so, you cast this really wide net and instantly get a ton of exciting people to look at that you might not have been aware of before.

Julie Harris Walker: Now are there different types of, say, agents? I've heard lit agents. Are there different agents for producers, different agents for directors or do people represent all kinds of people?

Jessica Malanaphy: I work most closely with lit agents and they represent usually writers and directors. Producers can also be represented. And of course, you have talent agents. So, I kind of I work with everybody in all those different capacities cause there is a lot of crossover, you know. Once in a while you have an actor who's represented by a talent agent but that actor really wants to get into directing. So, you might get a call from a talent agent about that or you have, you know, other kinds of crossovers. There are a lot of comedy writers especially who also have a talent agent. And sometimes people have a feature agent and also a TV agent. So, you can see it gets pretty complicated where you might have five or six people ultimately on the team for one person.

Julie Harris Walker: Wow. Yeah, that's a lot. And then there's also, I'm going to move to you Jeanette, there's what we call below the line agents.

Jeanette Volturno: Yes.

Julie Harris Walker: And those people you would work with I imagine.

Jeanette Volturno: Yes. So, we're recoining that “behind the camera,” below the line.

Julie Harris Walker: Ok. Well that makes it clear to understand.

Jeanette Volturno: When I was line producing, I would…I started cultivating my relationships with agents back then for DPs. Production designers, costume designers, editors, sometimes special effects, sometimes makeup, sometimes hair. Really the department heads that are in there. It became a lot easier when I went in-house and people would call me because they knew that we had a project that would, was announced at the trades and that we would be looking for crew. We don't always use agents. Sometimes the director will come with particular department heads that they want to work with and they'll have the first crack at it or sometimes I'll have a few people in mind that have the right personality, the right talent, the right vision, and the availability that I'll want to put in front of the director first before we throw the net a little wider. But we've met some really amazing people by taking general meetings and meeting them and then keeping them in mind for…then it's really about like, the right time in the right place, right? Finding, finding that time and the schedule and the project that fits everybody. But that to me is the fun part, is discovering someone through like, general meetings and stuff. I don't know. How did you like, Jess cultivate your relationships with your agents? Because for me it was it was just coming up through the ranks and then being the person in-house that they called to see if we had coming up.

Jessica Malanaphy: Yeah, I think most of my closest relationships are the people that I was an assistant with, you know? So, when my boss would call their boss and then we'd set our drinks afterwards and we'd go and chit chat and like those are still the people that I talked to the most because we all grew up together and then, yeah, definitely got easier when I was really looking to package projects and I had the ability to hire their clients. It's much easier to get a callback when you have that work to offer. For sure.

Julie Harris Walker: Do you guys have a perspective on how people get those agents or managers?

Jessica Malanaphy: I think sometimes it comes from working with a producer. You know I think that there are, you know, like I said when I was younger and working as an assistant I wasn't necessarily going to get calls back from agents and I wasn't gonna get to work with their top clients as much as I had my list of all the Oscar winners that I wanted to work with you know

Julie Harris Walker: Get me Tom Hanks on that!

Jessica Malanaphy: Yeah, I know he's not returning my call. So, you start working with, you know, unrepresented writers and cultivating those relationships and the hope is you can find somebody and really invest in them and find multiple products to do together and then at a certain point, I've had those people where I try to help them get an agent using my contacts and putting them, making those introductions the

Jeanette Volturno: Same for me for a few of the department heads that we've worked with in the past that have been people that we found for one means or another. Either they were from a foreign country and moved over here and gotten into the union and sort of moved up and had been undiscovered through one of the agents, or out of film school or a friend of a friend. Whatever. We found somebody and we'll do a movie and I'll get a phone call or two from agents afterwards saying, “Hey, I saw this film and I saw this person you know and I looked them up because I really liked the work that they did in that. Would you work with them again, do you recommend them, "Are they represented anywhere?” And so, we've been able to get a few people represented that way after seeing the work that they've done on a project.

Jessica Malanaphy: My assistant actually helped another one of my former assistants get an agent because she had been working as a development assistant and went off and directed her first feature and didn't know what to do with it, didn't have an agent, didn't have anyone to help her make the sale. So, my current assistant at that point really made a lot of introductions to her at all the different agencies and that's how she found her, her representation.

Julie Harris Walker: So, it really comes down to networking.

Jessica Malanaphy: Totally.

Julie Harris Walker: Well let's bring Kailey Marsh into this conversation now. I'm going to read you her little bio. Kailey Marsh is a literary manager at Brillstein Entertainment Partners. And prior to joining Brillstein earlier this year, Kailey ran her own independent management company. Kailey is also the founder of the Blood List, a best of list of unproduced dark genre screenplays and pilots. Welcome Kailey, we're so glad you're here.

Kailey Marsh: Thanks for having me.

Julie Harris Walker: Now I want to ask you, what was your first job and how did you get it?

Kailey Marsh: My first job out of college, or while I was still in college, was actually an internship, which I'll consider a job because that's where I got all my experience, And it led me into my first paid position. I worked at this company called Oz La which is Taka Ichise’s company and they did like Ringu and Ju-on, you know like Ring, Grudge, Dark Water, Shutter, all of the J Horror movies, and so he was a very prolific Japanese producer and that was during, not the last writers’ strike, but the writers’ strike before, end of 2007 into 2008. So, I was there and I was there for like four or five months and I was still in school so I was kind of like “oh, this is fine that I'm not getting paid and I'm learning so much, oh my god!” And at the time the V.P. Erin Eggers was like “Hey, like, do you want to get a job or at least another internship? Like, what are your interests?” And at the time I lived next to Paramount and I was like, “I'd love to work on the Paramount lot if there's any horror producers that you know.” And she knew this guy named Stephen Schneider who had recently joined the industry but was known for being, like, a genre guru and like and had encyclopedic knowledge of horror and I was like, that’s cool. So, I started interning for him and you know, my first week on the job he had, like, found Paranormal Activity. So, he had a deal with Jason Blum who now everyone knows. But at the time it was not the case. But yeah, I learned a lot, you know, so I interned there but I was there around the clock. Like definitely pulling crazy hours for an intern. And then finally they made me like a pseudo assistant and I was with them for about a year and a half and that was during, you know, Paranormal Activity and then into production and this movie called The Tooth Fairy. And then after that I started working for two managers at Circle of Confusion which is also a big management and production company. And I worked for Noah Rosen and Ken Freeman and it was there that I was like, “Being a manager seems awesome. I think I should do that.”

Julie Harris Walker: And here you are.

Kailey Marsh: And here I am.

Julie Harris Walker: So, has horror always been your jam?

Kailey Marsh: Yeah. I've always loved horror.

Julie Harris Walker: That's great. Now, talk about The Blood List.

Kailey Marsh: Yes. So, when I was over at Circle of Confusion, I had started a tracking board called Trackula. Tracking boards…tracking boards were really popular when I was an assistant, they’re not really that popular anymore. Though I guess that assistants use them but not the way we did. Like we were tracking scripts, and this was still like, not to date myself too much, but when you were like, printing out scripts and grabbing them and it was a lot harder to exchange information. So, my tracking board was specifically for horror fans and we were tracking horror movies that are at the festivals or that anyone could get their hands on a screener for or confidential scripts or whatever. So, I was meeting a bunch of executives by hosting these screenings and then at these screenings they would ask what I was reading and at the time I was reading Circle of Confusion clients and not all of them were genre. So, I asked, I opened it up to the board. “Hey, you know, I'll make a list of the scripts that everyone likes.” And I called it The Blood List at the top and it was just the script names, not even log lines. And I like, ended up quitting like a week or two after and my one of my bosses called and was like, “Hey, like, you're on tracking B!” and I'm like, I don't know what that was. And so basically, essentially, my list had gotten poached which means, you know, it was sent to other tracking boards and other assistants were passing it around and then these scripts that were on it became like, scripts that you have to read as an assistant and then, you know, the next year people were like, “Are you gonna do that again?” I was like, “Oh, well, if you want me to.”

Julie Harris Walker: It's a thing now.

Kailey Marsh: Yeah. And I'm like, a decade later, I'm still doing it. So, but yeah, I really do think that the reason why The Blood List has had staying power is because from the very beginning, it was something that people wanted, you know. It wasn't like I just was like, “Hey, here's this thing.” It was like, it was almost like, it was like by request and I happened to be the person who was running the tracking board that focused on horror.

Julie Harris Walker: So now it's the place where people want their script to be.

Kailey Marsh: Yeah, I mean it's definitely, basically a lot, has a lot of eyes on it especially in the feature space. I've been putting pilots on it for the past couple of years. The way that the pilot market works vs. Feature specs is so different that it's, it's usually harder to get pilots on because they're not necessarily as widely read because that's not how you go out with a pilot. You usually package it and more concerted effort to different places that you're sending it to. But yeah in the feature space people, people look forward to it and then it gets a ton of press. So, it's like, you know, for a lot of these writers getting on the list, and even some of the reps, it's the first time they've been on Deadline, Variety, Hollywood Reporter. So, it's just like an accolade that also, because of the timing of it, like a month and a half later The Black List comes out. So, there's usually a lot of crossover of scripts being on The Blood List and The Black List because of the proximity of people reading it during this short amount of time.

Julie Harris Walker: That is pretty cool. Now do the submissions all come through reps or can people submit directly?

Kailey Marsh: So, on the annual Blood List, it does function very much like The Black List, like executives vote. I've always been a rep since I've started it. Like I was an assistant the first year but after that I've been a manager for the most part. And so, you know, reps can't vote, writers can't vote. It's just the executives who get the ballot. And so, you know, they'll get the ballot and they get to vote for their six most liked dark genre screenplay. Horror, thriller, sci fi, dark drama, dark comedy. If you think you should be on The Blood List, it should. You know, it's not, it's not that serious. I’m like, people are like “Should this kind of script…” I’m like, use your best judgment. Like does it belong on The Blood List? If not, then don't submit it. But yeah. So, it's just executives vote and then you know it gets tallied on my site and then we contact the reps. Which brings me to why I created Fresh Blood which is a free screenwriting initiative on the website. I know it's expensive for a lot of writers to submit to these screenplay competitions. I'm a judge for a lot of these competitions. I know that there is a lot out there and so I just wanted to have an outlet that people could submit their screenplay for free. It's a lottery and the way that basically my readers and I decide, we tried to, we try to read everything but if it's like, if we start reading it and the first page is awful, I don't know. It gets tossed to the side sometimes, you know?

Julie Harris Walker: If it’s terrible, you don’t have to read it.

Kailey Marsh: If it's terrible. This year we got through all the submissions. I probably read, you know, after like three rounds of reading I probably read like 40 or 50 and then from there we narrow it down to 10. So, there are lots of other scripts we liked but for a lot of reasons, like we put 10 on the Fresh Blood List and then once again it's 100 percent free for these writers. But we host it. We host their screenplay on the site on Blood List. So, you can view all of the Fresh Blood scripts on the website.

Jeanette Volturno: Are the writers on Fresh Blood repped?

Kailey Marsh: The Fresh Blood writers are not repped. They're all unrepresented. That's the goal of getting these writers out there is that so they can be represented and their scripts can go on to be optioned. This year, one of the writers was but I didn't know that till we called a fact check about it. On the actual annual Blood List, most of them are repped because in order for their screenplay to be out in circulation and in town that much it's usually sent out by a rep of some sort.

Julie Harris Walker: Okay great. So, from your perspective, can you kind of break down for us the difference between an agent and a manager?

Kailey Marsh: It's weird because I feel like there are so many similarities these days with agents and managers just because of how entrepreneurial every person has had to be in their business because of the business changing as fast and as much as it has in the past like, decade that I've been in it. The number one difference between agents and managers is that managers can produce. Stemming back from that, if you're going to be producing a project, it's usually something that you've either come up with the idea with your client or been extremely heavy in the development process with them. You know, I mean I'm close with my clients in the sense that like, I like to know everything they're doing and be helpful along the way. Agents, depending on each agent because each agent in each agency is different, can be as hands on as they want. I usually look to agents as more of a soundboard of, “Hey, we did all this work. What do you think?” I'm not coming to them every step of the way. I've been doing this a long time. My clients and I have a rapport but I do really rely on agents to be my partners in terms of going out with scripts. You know, sending it out to the town and sending it out to producers or packaging and ideas for packaging, especially if they're at an agency that has a lot of talent or big producers or big directors that we want to target specifically. Like, they're way more helpful, like, getting one of their pieces of talent attached than I would be as an outsider. And so, I think that we both definitely have our strengths and weaknesses but yeah. I tend to like managers. The way I see it being one is that we're the first stop and agents are like the second in terms of, I am usually on the same page as my clients and then we'll go to the agent with the situation or the issue or the exciting piece of news or whatever but that's just because agents tend to have a much bigger roster than managers and their time is spread way more thin and that's just how it is.

Julie Harris Walker: Are you both making the sale or is the agent making the sale?

Kailey Marsh: If you want to nickel and dime it, I feel like we're both, we're both making the sale. I feel like sometimes I'll be like, “oh man, like, I did that,” you know? Just knowing that every step I made is why it eventually sold. But in terms of transactions, managers are not supposed to deal with money. We're not supposed to deal with negotiations because we're not signatory and that's like an agent thing. Agents negotiate but…they, you know, agents will always be like, “What do you think, Kailey?” and I'll be like, “That works” or you know…

Julie Harris Walker: You work together on the deal but they're negotiating the final terms.

Kailey Marsh: Yeah, in terms, because people are like, “oh don't agents get people jobs?” I'm like yes because they're given a lot more information and because it's such a high volume thing. But of course, managers are making sales and selling stuff all the time getting clients jobs. We're just not being the one to negotiate it or you know that it's basically just negotiations that we're not handling but we're privy to it and involved in the whole process.

Julie Harris Walker: So, does a writer need a manager and an agent?

Kailey Marsh: I think each writer should figure that out on their own. I mean, I think having a manager first is an easier way to get an agent. I feel like it's very hard to get agent’s attention and a lot of the incentive of an agent signing a client with me is that they like me and they want to work with me and they want to share a client with me because I talk to my clients’ agents a lot. I probably talk to my clients’ agents much more than the client talks to their agents. So, it has to be someone who I really like and who the client likes. But it's definitely a team effort because that's, that's the thing is it's important if you do have an agent and a manager and of course an attorney just to all the operating together. Otherwise…

Julie Harris Walker: It takes up mileage.

Kailey Marsh: Yeah. It's so hard to get anything done.

Julie Harris Walker: So, at what point do you need representation? And then how do you get it?

Kailey Marsh: Once again everyone listening, like, each person's story is different. You never know who you're going to meet or how you're going to meet them or when you're gonna meet them. I feel like it's always better to be overprepared. You know, if I meet with someone and they're like “I'm a director,” I'm like, “What have you directed?” And they're like, “Oh, well I'm working on something,” I'm like, “Neat. Then say that you're about to direct something,” you know? Don't, don't, don't present yourself in a way that is inaccurate to someone who reps writers and directors for a living. And so, I hear a lot of people, especially younger people, you know kind of like shot gunning like “Oh yeah. This and that. Whatever.” I'm like, I make money from you getting jobs. So, if it's realistic that you can get a job, we can work together. If I see some form of talent, it’s like if you do a short and I'm obsessed with that and, your short and I want to send it to everybody, that's great. If your short is only ok but everyone else loves you, I'm not the person for you. You should find someone who you click with. So, I feel like a lot of it is, you know, having this one piece of material or two pieces or whatever. If it's a screenplay, I think if you have one great screenplay I would automatically start writing another one because if one thing is great, people are going to want to know what else you have. And yeah, if you're a director I would just say, like, be directing stuff like even if it is shorts or even Instagram videos. I don't care. Like when I, when I meet with directors and I don't get any sense from their social media or anything that they're a director, I'm like, people are so short sighted these days and people are given so much information on a daily basis, you kind of have to tell people exactly what you want them to think you are.

Julie Harris Walker: And show them.

Kailey Marsh: And show them, and show them. Especially as a director, I’m like just show me you’re a director, you know? Because you know, like, for instance, I have a writing client and she has been a storyboard artist for a long time and I just think she's great and she wants to direct her next movie and I'm like, yeah. Let's do it. You know, because I believe that you can be a director and, and she like, she's assertive and she just has the mentality for it and she's been around a bunch of directors and shadowed and everything and I'm like, yeah. Let's do it. But only because I worked with her very closely on her script and know that she's pretty much the perfect person to direct this movie. And yes, we could get someone who's directed a feature but like, does that make them more qualified to direct her movie? I don't know. And, you know, once again that goes into the fact that I've been managing for over seven years and I can kind of tell if someone will be a good director because I've represented them, I've been on set, I’ve produced stuff. So, I guess it's the same thing for new writers and directors starting out is like, where do you see yourself in the industry? Are you able to pitch yourself? Do you have a body of work behind you? And if so, then I think you're ready to have a manager who can help guide you and take you to the next level. But that being said, and I think it's important to say, it's extremely hard to secure a manager. You know, we have small rosters, meaning we, you know, most managers have under 20 clients and even 20 clients, it's a lot. You have to be so in love with the person you're representing and also the creative has to be in love with who's representing them and feel confident that person is pitching them in the way that they see themselves and their career going.

Jeanette Volturno: When you take on someone, do you sit with them and sort of say, “Look, here's where you want to go. And here are the things that we should do to get you to that place” and, you know, kind of work with them through all of that? So, is that a big, almost like life coaching, in your career, right?

Kailey Marsh: Yeah absolutely. I mean it's definitely super hands on. I mean I've spent plenty of weekends going line by line over a script with my clients just making sure, you know, that it's exactly what they want it to be and what I've been promising the town if I've been soft pitching it to executives. Also, you know, from doing it for so long, like, I know what people respond to. You know I know if you're in a meeting with someone and they're like, super excited about an idea but I've read the script and I don't think that's the idea that they think, then we should do more work on it. So, you know, I guess it's…

Jeanette Volturno: You also get into, like, the personality and how they're in a room, like all the other stuff beyond their talent of what they put on the paper, what, you know, what they put on screen, like all of the other stuff. Because that's what I feel like a manager kind of does a little bit more than an agent, gets into like, you as a person and your confidence and how you portray yourself and you know…

Julie Harris Walker: Like how to pitch in a room?

Jeanette Volturno: Yeah, all of that.

Kailey Marsh: Yeah definitely. I mean, each client needs more or less, you know? I definitely, I mean, something, yeah. I mean, I've represented a lot of my clients for a long time. Like, half my roster I’ve represented for four, five, six years so I just have a certain rapport. With newer clients it’s definitely more challenging because I'm like, you know, I don't know, I kind of just say exactly what I want all the time. I've gotten a lot now that I’m in my 30’s. You know, it's really important how you carry yourself in a meeting. I've definitely had hard conversations with clients about like, “Hey, like, they thought you seemed pretty disinterested the entire meeting but you weren't, right?” Yeah, you know? Like, so it's stuff like that. But, of course, going into that scenario, the executive’s calling me and being like, “Hey, like, I don't know if they seem that interested in it but I really like them for the project.” So, then I have to go and be like, you know, kind of just, it's just like taking notes. Like I have to go and kind of dilute the message but find out what happened and then call the executive back and be like, “They're super interested. Sorry, like, their cat passed away” or something.

Julie Harris Walker: It's like having a whole different skill from writing a script to pitching in a room. It’s got to be…

Kailey Marsh: Oh yeah.

Julie Harris Walker: It's not an automatic transfer of skills.

Kailey Marsh: I mean, it takes practice. Like, I do practice pitches with my clients as often as possible. Some people don't prefer it. Like my more senior clients are just, kind of like to wing it. I like to hear it. Like, I like to hear the exact same, the exact pitch that you're gonna give the executive. It's the same reason why I care so much about my clients screenplays is: it's your name on the script, it’s also my name on the script and it's my relationships that I've accrued over the years with goodwill of sending them great material over and over.

Julie Harris Walker: Don’t wreck it!

Kailey Marsh: And, you know, people will be like, “Oh, it's taking so long to get a read.” I'm like, it's been three days and I'll get that read for you. But if a person gives a fast read it's just like, knowing it's just like your friend. It's like, if you can get your friends to do something but a stranger can't get that or do something then yeah, that makes sense.

Julie Harris Walker: So, there's a lot of talk about branding and branding yourself as an artist is, is that important? And do you help people with that?

Kailey Marsh: Definitely, especially…I mean I think branding is especially important now when everything like, even social media is your branding. I hate social media but I'd be lying if I said it didn't help me out a lot especially with building out Blood List. You know, I'm wearing my Blood List necklace now. I'm always wearing something Blood List because people have to constantly be reminded who you are

Julie Harris Walker: Oh, you're drinking out of my branded mugs! Make no mistake… (laughter)

Kailey Marsh: Exactly, Exactly, Exactly. By the way…But yeah, it's the same thing in writing because there’s such a small amount of jobs, people are confused that there are a lot of jobs. There are a lot of jobs but they're not really active. So, people be like, there's 700 open writing assignments and I'm like, yeah. This one was open when I was in third grade, you know? It's like some things aren't active. So, there's such a small pot of jobs and everyone is trying to find specific people for those jobs. You know, I feel like I have a lot of horror writers but I like that they're all very different from each other. And that's the thing too is like, horror. People say “Oh, that's just a horror writer.” I'm like, no, but like, this person is really great with character and this one's really good with scares and this one is a writer/director and only wants to work on monster movies. It's like, you know, each person has their own little niche within the niche. But yeah, I mean it's been immensely helpful for me to have created the Blood List before becoming a manager because I was able to sign a bunch of dark genre writers really early on. And while a lot of my clients don't write in the dark genre world, every executive that reads out reaches out to me for something horror, most of the time works in other genres as well and I'm able to pitch my other clients or get other business going. And I like that I have become like, the go to person to talk to or at least one of them in the horror space.

Julie Harris Walker: So, I'm sure everyone listening is like, “Oh, how do I get on her roster?” Like, how much churn do you have and how often you even take on new clients?

Kailey Marsh: It's very rare I take on new clients. Having had my own shop for almost six years, I basically was, like, barely getting through all the work I needed to get it done every single day. I still feel that way. It was just my assistant like, working in my living room and like, us like pounding the pavement every day. I really like to spend a lot of time on each of my clients every day. And the more clients I have, the less time I have to spend on each person. And so, you know, it's kind of like, you know, if you do too many things kind of OK you should just be doing like one or two things really, really well.

Jessica Malanaphy: How much when you're taking on new clients or considering new clients, how much of it is based on personality versus how much is based on the work?

Kailey Marsh: Interesting question. I feel like because most of the time I am reading someone's material or watching someone's material before actually meeting them, I feel like I would of course say that the work is more important. Though I will say, if I meet with someone, no matter how much I love their work, and I don't get along with them, it's not gonna work out. Especially because as a manager, of course, the goal is you're going to be with these people, you know, your creatives from the time that they start to the time that they finish, no matter how long that is. So, it's just like any other relationship. You wouldn't want to stay in if it wasn't necessarily perfect.

Jessica Malanaphy: And how do you balance…I mean it's kind of like this relationship triangle a little bit between representation and clients and execs and producers and sometimes it gets a little contentious one way or the other because, I know as a producer. Sometimes there's things that are asked of a writer where I'll go direct to the writer and I know that's a big no-no for representation and I'll get my wrist slapped but I also have this direct relationship with the client sometimes. So how do you kind of mediate that and what are the reasons why there's a little bit of protection sometimes.

Kailey Marsh: I always love for my clients to go through me, especially with executives and producers, just because it acts as a buffer. A lot of times this is not every case with every producer, but a lot of times producers will deal with a client directly because they're the weakest link in terms of agreeing to things. So, you can get them to agree to do more work or settle on a dollar amount or you know make commitments that we as their reps don't necessarily feel like is the best for them. So, I like, if you know, a client defers to me or his agents or whoever, you know, in a situation. And even if you are like best friends with one of my clients, I always like to be looped in on all the emails, CC’d, privy to information because once I feel like I'm not as educated on something as the client, it's just going to create more work for everybody. Because everyone has to be on the same page and there has to be transparency or else there's misunderstanding and things take longer and, you know, especially if money is exchanging hands, it's always best to deal with the reps because that's why we're here.

Jessica Malanaphy: And once you do get signed, how do you be a good client? What do you hope that your clients will take away to make your life as a rep easier, and by extension, then making their own life easier as the client?

Kailey Marsh: Man, these are really tough questions. Basically, this is my blanket statement. Trust the people you're working with or don't work with them, you know? Know that they have your best interests at heart or you shouldn't be working with them, you know?

Julie Harris Walker: Trust that you're doing your job.

Kailey Marsh: And trust that, trust that I'm doing my job and also, I will be 100 percent upfront with someone if I think that they need to do something to make something better. So, you know, the question of, you know, should i- Is there anything I can be doing is a good one but asking what I'm doing is a little bit disrespectful because we've already had a conversation of what I'm doing. You know, asking to follow up with people or asking me to do specific stuff can be taken as a slight to me who has already explained exactly when and how things are going to work out. It's, it's good to be inquisitive. It's not good to be aggressive with your follow ups. You know a lot of people will hit me up on social media. I think that's an inappropriate place to discuss business. That's a place I want to post pictures of my dog and my family, not a place I want to hear about your screenplay. You know, I just, with my clients I have always given them instructions of what I want them to be doing and you know, essentially, if your project is amazing, I know what I need to do. I need to get it made or, you know, get it sold and get it made and get a package. And just know that's my goal and we should be on the same page together.

Jessica Malanaphy: It's a partnership. It's a two way relationship.

Kailey Marsh: It's 100 percent a partnership. That's the thing, it's like, you know, with like any other partner and any other thing. You want to know that you guys are in this together and the whole goal is success for you.

Julie Harris Walker: And it may take longer than you think it's going to take.

Jessica Malanaphy: Everything takes longer.

Kailey Marsh: Everything takes longer. If you sell a project today, you might get paid for it in the next, like, seven months or maybe not. Or maybe the contract will take three months to negotiate. Or maybe, you know, a sale is actually an if-come deal which means you're not gonna make any money until a network shops your project in the TV space. It's also incredibly hard to sell things because you have to get so many people to sign off on it which is why, you know, your partners, your managers and your agents, are the people who, you, should be the easiest to deal with because we're dealing with people who are much harder to deal with and we have to convince them that you are the best person for the job because we know that you are but it's convincing other people who have to convince other people who have to convince other people to write a check.

Julie Harris Walker: You're all on the same side.

Kailey Marsh: Yeah.

Julie Harris Walker: Okay. Then what if they want to be a manager. How do you do that?

Kailey Marsh: Being a manager is an extremely fulfilling job. It's also an extremely hard job, very multifaceted. You're dealing with a lot of personalities on a lot of different levels. You know, the more successful people come, become, sometimes the harder it is to deal with them. Like I said, selling screenplays and getting people jobs is always an uphill battle. So just knowing that like, if you want to be working pretty much 24/7, then you should be a manager. (laughter) No, I mean, if you want to be a manager definitely target assistant positions that are in representation. Whether that's at an agency where you can learn how to be a rep just in general or at a management company. It's really hard when you know, people will come to me and say “I want to be a manager but I have no management experience.” I'm like, then get some, you know? Just get a little bit, just to see how people who are great at the job do their job and to learn what to do and what not to do. You know, having recently had my own company and now working at Brillstein Entertainment Partners, which is an extremely prestigious management company. You know, I do things very differently than a lot of other managers there and I'm learning the pros and cons of how we all do business. And I think it's a really good way, like I said. Like, I've been managing over seven years. I'm still learning. I imagine I'll still be learning when I've been managing for 20 years and 30 years. You're never not learning especially when there's so much material and there's so much stuff out there. You know, I feel like if you want to be a manager just know that you have a lot of ha- you wear a lot of hats and it's a lot of different jobs all melded into one.

Julie Harris Walker: Just so people know, kind of, what is the pay scale? How are managers paid?

Kailey Marsh: Managers are paid 10 percent. That's, that's across the board. But the standard is 10 percent. 10 percent of what they earn. And then, they being the writer or director or creator. And same thing for agents. Agents pay 10 percent and, this is not always the case, but ninety five percent of the people I deal with pay 5 percent to their attorney. So, you're essentially paying 25 percent out of whatever you earn though I think it is worth mentioning that is not a lot of money when someone is selling your screenplay which is insanely hard to do. I see a lot of people get really hung up on these hype- of this hypothetical money that they haven't actually gotten. And what I think the best writers and the best creators and the best clients are so thankful and so gracious when they make any kind of money that they're happy to pay someone out. You know, these people in your lives are working really hard so you can become successful and so, you know, they can make money from that. Like this is a job.

Jeanette Volturno: To focus on what it is you, as a creator, like to do, right? It takes, it takes that piece out that they don't need to, they don't need to hustle and work on negotiations. They don't need to go bang on doors and follow up and do all that stuff. They can literally focus on the craft of what they want to focus on. That makes it worthwhile.

Julie Harris Walker: And without them would they even be making that money, right?

Kailey Marsh: Who knows. But I mean, I feel like people, you know, people that get short sighted by spend- by quote “paying people.” I think that's the wrong way to go about it. I think it should be like, in succession. Everyone is happy. And yeah, I mean I've never had a problem with clients ever wanting to pay out because they know that I worked for it. You know it's the same as anybody who works for anything, it’s, they deserve to be paid. But yeah, first and foremost it's clearly making sure that the client is getting the right amount of money. And then from there we, we get paid.

Julie Harris Walker: Right. Kailey Marsh, thank you so much for being on our panel.

Kailey Marsh: Oh, thank you guys so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Julie Harris Walker: So now we're going to welcome Matt Birch to the podcast. Now, Matt is a partner of APA which is Agency for the Performing Arts. It is a full service agency but we're gonna focus on below the line today. And prior to that he came up working in production for many years. So, Matt I want to ask you, what was your very first job in this business and how did you get it?

Matt Birch: I love it. That's the best question. My first job in the business was, I was a PA on series of commercials. A friend referred me to a commercial producer and I, was the big shot. Two weeks after arriving here all my friends received a call to PA on a bunch of El Pollo Loco commercials and, which…series of events. First one was day one. They said “who can drive a 10 ton truck?” Of course, I raise my hand. Didn’t know what it was. I ended up picking up 100 live chickens which I didn't know out near Stevenson Ranch and then I was driving back. There was no Humane Society present at the time. And drove them all back in to the stage where we unloaded all those chickens and let's just say it was a great education. I'll skip to the final day of the job where I was doing other returns, returning the camera equipment, the walkies, everything that was rented for the show. And I was pulling into all Raleigh Studios and the guard gate waved me in and I thought he was waving me into where he was standing. Ended up crashing into the guard's booth taking the roof of the guard booth off and with everyone screaming at me, I guess directing to what is now called the truck entrance. And, and I thought my career was over. Ran inside to my producer Brenda, who was amazing, wringing my hands and I told her how, I said something happened and you can keep my paycheck. Went through the litany…

Julie Harris Walker: So sorry…

Matt Birch: So sorry. She said, “What happened.” I said, “Well, come outside.” So, we went outside. All of Raleigh Studios was just watching the destruction I’ve created

Jeanette Volturno: Which is, by the way, owned by Teamsters.

Matt Birch: Right, exactly! (laughter)

Jeanette Volturno: You never got into 399!

Matt Birch: Yeah, yeah exactly. The irony. And I remember standing there and I'm explaining to her, you know, “I'm sorry this happened and you know, you can fire me” and she said “Matt…” And at the time the head of the studio was screaming at her because of what I did and she just told him to be quiet. She turned and walked away with me. “Come on, let's go back to the office” and she said, Cement top.” She goes “this is why we have insurance.” So, I've always remembered “this is why we have insurance” and when we get insurance certificates when you do any production. But that was my first foray into Hollywood.

Jeanette Volturno: You really crashed in.

Matt Birch: Yeah, I crashed in!

Julie Harris Walker: The most amazing part of that story is that you got a second job.

Matt Birch: Exactly, exactly. I learned quick that…I was only told once my whole career that I would never work in this town again. And I felt like I had achieved, I was an assistant on a desk in a studio and I thought I achieved something. Someone screamed that at me on the phone and said it in a different way.

Julie Harris Walker: Like “I've made it.”

Matt Birch: Yeah. It was the head of the studio and then the irony is, a year later I'm sitting in a production meeting with the former head of the studio who was fired as a producer on a film that I was production managing and he was sitting right next to me and completely forgot the conversation, of course. And he told me I'd never work in this town again. So, I thought it was just ironic how it all comes around and you know, we're sitting side by side a year later.

Jeanette Volturno: That's Hollywood.

Matt Birch: It is Hollywood.

Julie Harris Walker: That is awesome. OK, so let's talk about the agency. First of all, how did you transition from production to being an agent?

Matt Birch: I was, after many years of physical production, I was friendly with John Furie who was running a small blue line agency called Montana Artists and he, at the end of my contract, I was working running physical production at an independent film company. At the end of the contract we went out to dinner and he called me the next day and said “I was thinking you should come work for me” and I said “Work for you?” And he said “I mean, work with me” and I said “Oh, work with you?” And I said, “John, you're not talking about being an agent, are you?” And he said, and he knew exactly where he's going and kind of hemmed and hawed and “no, I mean, you know, as an executive we're under Labor Commissioner laws you have to be an agent.” And I go “John. I hate agents” and he said “That's why you'd be perfect for this!” He said you're the anti-agent. So, it really started to want me to run this company for a year and through a series of events he passed away I took over the agency and it's nine years later. So.

Julie Harris Walker: So, it stuck.

Matt Birch: It stuck. It did. I really, really enjoy it. I do.

Julie Harris Walker: So, your agency now reps across the board, above the line, below the line?

Matt Birch: APA does, I run the department with my co-heads for physical production and you know, there's a lot of bleeding these days between the below the line, above the line. We have a lot of clients who are directing as well as writing. And so, we kind of touch everything.

Julie Harris Walker: OK. So earlier Jeanette was talking about, she would call someone like you if she's looking to hire department heads for a film or something like that. So, let's talk about your side of that. How does that work from your perspective?

Matt Birch: Well I mean, typically we'll get a call and it'll be from the head of network or studio or independent company and looking for, typically a line producer who can usually run a budget and a schedule for a project, whatever that may be. And we're really trying to do the casting from that start. We're trying to find the right people. If the buyer, as we would call them, doesn't know the producer we represent, it's something that we really want to impress why they should meet this person and we try to be right. We're not always right. But you know, you, after this many years you get to know who you're talking to on the other end of the phone. You understand their personalities you understand, quite frankly, the spirit of what the company is trying to do and you really try to make it, you know, you're not trying to shoehorn a human being into a position you're trying to find the right person. Because I look at the long game on everything and you really want someone to do some weekly business and continue working. You don't really want a one off and then have them not work together ever again.

Julie Harris Walker: So, you’re really matching competence and personality and also…

Matt Birch: Absolutely. I think personality...I think, you know, I think competence, for the most part, (I’m looking at Jeanette cause she’s worked with a lot of our clients), You know for the most part, competence is, it's a standard rule. You don't survive and continue to work this long, all right, say as long as my age, without having that competence. From there, everything else is great. Then who do you want to have in your family for nine months to a year or two years, it depends. And the personality is extremely important. That's really what I look for with our clients these days when we're signing people or people come to us it’s “we need something different.” Because we know that will sell.

Jeanette Volturno: 100 percent. I look at…there's traditional casting where you're casting the actors on the project. In my role as a head of production, I look at casting, I call it match.com. I am casting the director of photography, the costume designer, the production designer, the editor. Like all of the department heads. If they can't find a symbiotic way of working together and all have the same vision, it's not going to work. So, it really is, you're absolutely correct. It's really about personality and are they the right fit together? Do they make magic together?

Matt Birch: Right. And to your point I mean, take a cinematographer. You won't be regarded or looked at from a company if you don't know what you're doing, first of all. At the level that we're working at here…

Julie Harris Walker: That’s your table stakes.

Matt Birch: Right, exactly. So, from there, you know, it's a buyer's market too. I mean, you know, the people out there that are hiring your clients have many, many choices. And our job is to explain to them why if you don't know this person, why they're so special, why they might work perfectly for this project and you try to find common ground really. Because it is a nightmare when you don't have people like that.

Julie Harris Walker: Now, I'm curious because it's 2018. How conscious are you of the diversity mix of your roster and trying to make that happen on the set?

Matt Birch: Well, in terms of me making it happen on the set, that's less my job now but in terms of providing clients and the ability to meet clients like that? It has been, its primary, it's been primary for a decade. I'll be honest, I was never a person who wanted to run an agency that was filled with 400 white men. And you know, not to mention almost every one of my bosses from day one, until I stopped having the boss and any boss, had been women and I think it's, I've always been a champion of finding cinematographers, editors, line producers. Right now, the line producers we have, and I'm really proud of our roster, but the female or minority producers we have, they're all working and it is…I was talking to one yesterday who had an incredible offer. She was very emotional on the phone as I was because we were both so happy about what happened. This wouldn't have happened five years ago for her and part of my negotiation with the studio was, and it was a female executive I was negotiating with, I said this person is not going to make less than so-and-so did which is a gentleman who I don't represent and who produced a film earlier in the year for them. And there was silence and then they said “You're right.” And in turn things are, equalizing. We've got a long way to go but they’re equalizing a lot in terms of minority diversity. All the hires that are not your typical people that look like me.

Jeanette Volturno: Do you think that it's like with Netflix and Amazon all the streaming and everything, are you finding it hard to find qualified people to fill all of the things that are out there?

Matt Birch: Sure. Problem is this, the answer is yes. But the problem is this is that, you have, you know, there is so much content which means there is a watering down sometimes of qualifications and this goes across the board to local hires in certain cities where one day someone is a UPM and the next day they’re producing. That's not how it works. You know, I am biased because I worked my way up from the bottom, but I think when you do, for the most part, work your way up and cut your teeth and make your mistakes. That's how you become a better person or a better employee, whatever that may be. But to your point, yeah. It is hard. We are, you know, I also run the agency differently where we don't bulk up on clients. A lot of agencies do. But in terms of that, I'm trying to find the best people that people like, this goes to earlier what was said, just discussing management and clients. It doesn't help me or my agency to have unlikable people and it's not that hard to find people that are likeable. So, whether that's a woman, a man, a purple person, or a, you know, a green person, it doesn't matter. You're trying to match but I think you know, to Jeanette's question, there's so much work out there that I fear the quality also is dropping in certain areas and that to me I think is our biggest challenge right now. There is so much content out there that we have to try to keep the level high

Julie Harris Walker: Training people as fast as you possibly can.

Matt Birch: Absolutely. But really you know, but you know, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much you train them. They have to trip and fall.

Julie Harris Walker: It takes time.

Jessica Malanaphy: Do you take clients on that haven't done that skill before? Like you take people who are ready…

Matt Birch: No, what we do...no, no. I said that three times. Was I speaking loud enough? What we do is take people who are transitioning, let's say it's a supervising art director growing into a production designer, and that's a lot of what Jeanette in the past was hiring people that were ready to make that move. That, you know, that didn't quite frankly carry a lot of baggage that maybe other people had. So, there's a certain positions that have that…I'm almost there. It doesn't apply to all of them at all. I will take a unit production manager and work with them to be great producers. That is my primary goal when it comes to a producer. But no, it's too busy to have projects. There's a handful of people that we really help out because we believe in them. But I could not, the amount of time in the day is too short to be able to do that. You know people ask when should you come in and look for representation…

Julie Harris Walker: That was my next question.

Matt Birch: Oh, it's pretty clear when you need someone if you are getting the accolades whatever that may be. I mean, if you're getting the attention for your work, if you're delivering as a producer projects under difficult financial circumstances. Those are people that are ready. Those are people that just need the opportunity to succeed. So, I would not suggest someone fresh out of film school who wants to be a cinematographer look for representation. Your representation would not be able to do anything for you. It really depends on the category, when you're ready. But I think more than anything, earlier we talked about writers, you know, people want to be writers should find jobs in writers rooms and what I'm saying is also my path is you should be an assistant anywhere. It doesn't matter where, anywhere. Cause you will learn good or bad what you should do and shouldn't do.

Jeanette Volturno: 100%. Learn from other people’s mistakes.

Julie Harris Walker: Experience is valuable.

Matt Birch: Oh yeah. No, I mean, I remember watching a lot of my bosses sputter and scream and yell and I would just sit there quietly watching and realizing what that was all about. And it's really never about what happens, it's really about personalities and it's about how you handle stress.

Julie Harris Walker: You’re taking notes on what not to do.

Matt Birch: Absolutely. It's white noise. You know, people like that. And to me that was never effective. You know it's the old adage you get more bees with honey than vinegar.

Julie Harris Walker: So generally speaking when you're representing behind the camera people, as we're talking. Is it really once they get to be a department head or they're about to be a department head?

Matt Birch: Yeah that's the right timing. Like we always like it's diff- you know we have a mix of people that we used to go to Sundance and you know this is many years ago we recruit out of Sundance. Those are projects. And I'm saying that in a good way where you're finding some really young talent that has never been exposed before, the big break. Again, I’m using a cinematographer as an example. Those people need an extra hand and a little leg up or a couple of introductions and then you hope that like-minded people will see the value of their work and the beauty of their work. But yeah when you- but we also receive clients who are calling from other agencies who have had long, extensive careers. And we always welcome those people too.

Julie Harris Walker: Now we're talking to Kailey a little bit about the differences between managers and agents from her perspective as a manager. What’s your perspective on the differences between agents and managers?

Matt Birch: She’s so cool and so nice… (laughter)

Julie Harris Walker: No pressure.

Matt Birch: It’s good she's not here in here. Here's my feeling. Before I was, and this goes to the not really a joke about being anti agent, before I was working representation, I would deal with managers, I deal with agents. I really hated most agents. I dealt with- I loved one and he ended being my boss briefly and brought me into the agency. But managers, this goes to an earlier thought about who, who actually is listening to this. I'm sure many people will raise their eyebrows. So, I’ll just say it. I operate as an agent and a manager. Managers, there's a lot of counseling. I think if you're a good manager there's a lot of you incorporating someone's life, you're incorporating what they need, what their goals are, what the family's goals are. So, the difference is legally, you know, I come from production/producing. I cannot produce as an agent in the United States. A manager is, I don’t know. Has everyone seen Entourage? (laughter) I mean I find there's many managers that I enjoy but I find, when it comes to dealmaking and the effectiveness or strength of a deal. And this is from my perspective with my clients, an agent has always been stronger. The manager's been there more as a connector, an adviser, a psychiatrist sometimes. I kind of do both. So, it's hard for me to tell the difference. But I when people ask me, “Should I have a manager?” Sorry managers. I say you should meet a lot of agents. Meet a lot of agents and see if you can find some of that service as best- Because to her earlier point, twenty five percent is a lot of money from your labor, from your salary. And you know if you have the 5 percent for an attorney and we can't charge more than 10 percent legally and nor do we. So, I just, I find the difference is, I find a more personal life guiding side of management. I find the, a more, to say more hard core deal making…

Julie Harris Walker: Transactional…

Matt Birch: Transactional! This is why this is your show. Exactly. Transactional is definitely historically more on the agent's side.

Jeanette Volturno: How do you be a good client?

Matt Birch: I love that. That was a good question. Great question, God. And now everyone should listen. Honestly, and this goes to how myself and my colleagues sign. You have to work with people that are realistic and by realistic, I mean, they understand where the industry stands at the moment. It is changing every year. It's not every five years, every 10 years and it's more frequent depending on what the subject is. So, for me I look for people who have realistic expectations. I have clients who come in looking for representation and they've a great long history coming from another agency. And I usually come in at the end of the meeting and this is when my team usually rolls her eyes at me because I know what I'm about to say to this person. And I say, “Hey what was it like working at Blank” what, wherever they were. And a lot of times the answer is, “Well, they didn't get me a job.” I say, “OK. Anything else?” And generally, that's the answer sometimes and I say, “OK well, we're never gonna get you a job.” And then that's usually when everyone’s shaking their head at the other end of the table and then the client is either shocked or gets it and…The get it is, we open doors for people. We introduce them to people they've never met before. We try to follow a path and have goals and dreams and try to achieve that as a collaboration with your client. If you don't have a client who is doing some legwork on their own, not sitting on the couch waiting for the phone to ring. Going out, as painful as it is, writing five e-mails a day to people they've worked with. Just checking in. Even saying hey I saw a poster for that movie we did five years ago. Even if you didn't. You know, make a connection with your previous employers that you had a good relationship with. We need that. So, a good client is someone who is actively involved in collaborating to get to the next step. And every person is different. Many people come and say I'm not a good networker. That's fine. You don't have to be. But you do have to talk to people and you have to go out and you have to find yourself at a coffee shop or if you're a DP find yourself helping someone prep a paint division or wherever they may be prepping just to get out there and see people. Because everyone knows here that a job typically will come from someone who just saw you, who got a phone call, “Hey I'm looking for a producer.” “Boom Oh wow I just ran into Joe Schmo. He's available…” So, there was a long way of saying how to be a good client just be realistic and be helpful.

Julie Harris Walker: Well and I heard to own your own career.

Matt Birch: You have to. You have to. You have to.

Julie Harris Walker: Do you have any final advice?

Matt Birch: I do. I think as someone who is either starting out, someone who might be frustrated where the career sits now, or someone who’s kind of on autopilot, I never, I think this is why I enjoy what I do so much. Again, never thinking I would be an agent, because it came with such a stigma from what you see on TV and movies. There are crazy people in every aspect of this business. It doesn’t matter, being an agent, being this, being that. The advice is: enjoy what you do. If you don’t, this goes to the earlier point, it’s not worth it. It’s not worth it. People give up a lot of life things here. Be it family, be it marriages, be it just friendships. Relationships, marriages, hobbies. Sorry, this is going really dark…What we, or like, a lot of people sitting here, what we try to do is…I think success in this business is being able to do a great job, carry a strong reputation, but be able to do other things and talk about other things. Cause there’s nothing, besides going home for Thanksgiving and everyone still thinking I’m a director and giving me the video camera… (laughter) “Hand it to the director!” Besides that, people, you have to really love your day. You’re gonna have tough days, no matter what job you do. But god, I want to wake up every day and be excited by what you do. That’s my only advice. Don’t give up, and you will know when it’s time to leave if it’s time to leave.

Julie Harris Walker: Ok, I think that’s a wrap for our representation episode or “Call my People!” I want to thank our panelists, Jessica Malanaphy, Jeanette Volturno, Matt Birch, and Kailey Marsh. Hopefully, this will help you to Catch a Break. This has been Catch A Break the insider’s guide to breaking into and navigating Hollywood. I'm Julie Harris Walker. And that’s a wrap on Season One of the Catch a Break Podcast. Now, we’re hard at work getting ready for Season Two and we’re gonna cover a new host of topics. Some of the ideas we’re throwing around are writing, directing, inclusion and equality, creative development, work-life balance, producing, union vs non-union, acting. We’ve got a lot of ideas and we want to hear from you. So, reach out to us on the website catchabreakpodcast.com and let us know what you want to hear. And special thanks to our intern Akiva Nemetsky and our consultant Lee Schneider of Red Cup Studios. Thanks also to Audio Department who generously provided the recording equipment and Jean Malanaphy who designed our logo. And a big thank you to Andrew Joslin who created our theme song “Mantra for a Struggling Artist,” and any additional music you hear throughout. Catch A Break is produced by Jeanette Volturno, Jessica Malanaphy, Marcei Brown, Rick Osako. Shirley Davis and me. Julie Harris Walker. You can find us at CatchABreakpodcast.com and that is also where you can go to download the bonus materials. Join our mailing list so you don't miss an episode or other programs. And we want to hear from you. So, reach out to the web site. Again, that's CatchABreakpodcast.com and also follow us on Facebook and on Twitter. Thanks for listening and we hope this helps you to Catch A Break.